stuck 478

[abus319]

Hey all, new old guy here. I was a member a few years back under an old email address.
I recently aquired a military surplus 478 that was rebuilt, but never used. Its stuck and after soaking it in diesel for a few days it will not budge. I tried bumping it using grade 8 bolts and a long bar but it bends the bolts. It doesnt have a flexplate or flywheel so any ideas on how to get some torque on the crank?
Thanks
H

[bigblockv6]

I would check out the bottom end, Pull the oil pan off, remove the main bearing caps and check if they're lubed. Maybe some "Marvel Mystery Oil" down the cylinders and if that doesn't work you may have to pull the heads of and check out the condition of the cylinder walls. If moisture got in that could have formed rust on the cylinder walls.

[abus319]

Hmm hadnt really thought of the mains, was thinking stuck rings. I will let it soak for a coupl more days then pull the pan. I wish I had borescoped the cyls before I poured all that diesel in.
Thanks

[Foley]

I say don't force it too much. Just get it loose. A few days isn't much time. I've had them soak for months before coming loose. If it's one or more pistons that are stuck, use whatever penetrating concochun you think is best. WD 40, Diesel fuel, Marvel Mystery Oil, Automatic transmission fluid, and some guys even swear by coca cola. Many people use a mixture of one or more of the above. If it's lower end, then getting those main bearing caps off will help and may show what's seized. If you run out of patience, do like Bigblock suggests and pull the heads. Good luck

[Rockdriller]

Hey all, new old guy here. I was a member a few years back under an old email address.
I recently aquired a military surplus 478 that was rebuilt, but never used. Its stuck and after soaking it in diesel for a few days it will not budge. I tried bumping it using grade 8 bolts and a long bar but it bends the bolts. It doesnt have a flexplate or flywheel so any ideas on how to get some torque on the crank?
Thanks
H

A feller could maybe pull the front balancer and leave the woodruff key in the crank shaft.......then get a big crescent wrench and use it on the crank shaft up against the woodruff key......should be able to develop a lil' bit more torque that way..........maybe...
Luck.

[abus319]

months eh, well I guess i dont have an immediate need for it, and letting it sit and soak is the least expensive/invasive option. Meanwhile I think I will drill a plate to match the crank flange and weld a large nut to it. Then I can get the impact on it.

[Foley]

I think that might be a good option. I like a 50/50 ATF/diesel mix, or all ATF in those cylinders. Get the large nut on there like you say, and using a big, 3/4" drive impact wrench, give it a 5 second blast with the wrench about once or twice a day. It's not so much the torque will break it loose at first, it's the combination of the torque and more important, the vibration from the wrench that will help the penetration.

[George Bongert]

Howdy abus319!

RE: your stuck 478, I've been told a 50/50 mixture of laquer thinner and brake fluid will get even the most stubborn stuck engine to break loose. Of course, that's only what I was told, I never tried it myself. Since you have nothing to lose, it's worth a try. If you use this idea and it works, please post and let the rest of us know if it worked or not.

[abus319]

ohhh brake fluid and lacquer thinner,that sounds like a lethal combination. If the long soak with trans fluid and diesel doesnt work It might be worth a try. I think the impact will move it slightly enough to get the diesel behind the rings and get the job done. If not I will open it up like bigblock recomends.
Thanks everyone for your ideas and input.

[Mike Caldwell]

Don't forget to tighten as well as loosen with the big impact.

Remember these big engines weren't made to get in a hurry so we shouldn't either

[abus319]

Thanks Mike
Actually just got the plate and nut built yesterday. Hit it with the impact both directions. It didnt budge, but over time I think she will break loose. I think I will also pull the dist and pump some oil through the engine. Im not in a hurry, I only bought this one to keep it from going to the scrap yard.

[abus319]

she came loose today! I could hear slight noises coming from the exaust when i hit it with the impact, so I got the 1 inch drive rachet and rocked it back and forth a bit and now she's free.

[FetchMeAPepsi]

Aww yeah! :yeeuh: another one saved! Congrats Abus319

[Foley]

That's whut I'm talkin' bout!!!! Good job 319. And to tell you the truth, it didnt' take as long as I thought it would. You musta been real diligent with that impact wrench workin' away at that thing. So.....what's next for that bigol motor??

[abus319]

Thanks guys. I was surprised that it gave up so easily. Its been soaking for a while in the diesel and trans fluid, but only got the impact on it last week. I used a 1/2 drive impact instead of a 1 inch thinking that the vibration would help get some fluid behind the rings.
All of the cyls had threaded plastic caps in the spark plug holes and they were pretty much paint sealed except for one. it showed evidence of a rats nest. I think some urine made its way into the cyl.
I dont really have a plan for it, but I do want to hear it run. I took the valve covers off and it looks like it was never run after the overhaul. (The spec sheet shows new .060 pistons.) So for now, check for damage, and drain the oil/diesel/trans fluid in the crankcase. And??

[Rockdriller]

Very nice...
Complete with air compressor..

[Cayoterun]

Okie Panhandle patience, guts, determination, ingenuity, and stubborness wins again!!!!!

Congrats, 319. Looking forward to hearing her run.

[Rockdriller]

Okie Panhandle patience, guts, determination, ingenuity, and stubborness wins again!!!!!

Congrats, 319. Looking forward to hearing her run.

Folks like me and 'Yote.....we look forward to hearin' 'most anything run....

I'm pretty glad about you gettin' the upper hand on that thing.
I'm also curious about what all came with your "crate motor"...?
Was there anything more than what we see in the pic's...? It would be nice to see a few more pics.
I see the mechanical tach drive.....and the super HD mounts and the air compressor.....and that alternator....(I'd like to see more on that, too)...

That thing is sure somethin' to be proud of.

[Cayoterun]

Tonight is the first time I connected this thread with the PMs we had exchanged.

First, if I find an irrigation stand to sit it in, would you want me to grab it? You could run it in the stand by running a garden hose in the surge tank and letting the cold water circulate and run over. Messy, but works.
I'll also be on the look-out for any junkers here, in case you need more misc. parts. Some of them even had hand clutchs on them.

Curious? Bored .060, does that add enough ci to bring it up near or over 500ci total?
If it did, and someone asked if it was 478, 351, or ?, you could honestly say, "Naa, it's a 503.5", or whatever. Makes good braggin' rights, and size they had never heard of.

That's another thing that's fun with these motors. People are curious enough about them, that a guy can kid around with them some, before explaining what kind of critter they're looking at.

It will be interesting to see what kind of project it will lead you. Maybe a go-cart, dune-buggy,---who knows?

Whatever? Best of luck!!!!

Oh, as the grand-kids would say. That little "happy dance" you gave when it rolled over was in order for an old guy.

[abus319]

Rockdriller, the compressor had an overhaul tag on it as well. I dont know anything about the application though. It looks like it uses pressurized oil from the engine, but thats a guess. It came with a new carb, aircleaner and 2 massive looking motor mounts, and a new fan blade. I will take more pics when I get back out there.
Cayoterun, thanks for all your help and the trip down memory lane. I will stop by the next time I get up there. We had several irrigation stands at the farm, set up for 413 Chryslers, but I think my brother sold most of them. So yea If you find one grab it and I will send you a check.
I am going to need a flywheel before I can try and start it as well.
Thanks to all for your support, love this site.

[Rockdriller]

Quote
"Rockdriller, the compressor had an overhaul tag on it as well. I dont know anything about the application though. It looks like it uses pressurized oil from the engine, but thats a guess. It came with a new carb, aircleaner and 2 massive looking motor mounts, and a new fan blade. I will take more pics when I get back out there."

You're correct.....that compressor is oiled by the same port that would lube your turbo.
I'll try to find a pic. of mine.

Very nice set-up.

[Cayoterun]

Abus:
I checked my treasure pile, and I think I have a stand for your 478, complete/w surge tank, gauge panel and murphy gauges.
I can send some pics pm with some measurements before you head this way next time to be sure. If it will fit, it's yours. I'll never use it again.
I welded some temperary mounts on it to runin some 350s & 348s. Easy to knock off with a torch and do no harm to it.

It's one of the bolt together, so if your short on space, we can knock it down so all pieces will lay flat to get home.

[abus319]

I took a few more pics. It was overcast so quality isnt the best.

[abus319]

Cayoterun
Thanks, I will let you know when I am headed that direction. It will more than likely be Thanksgiving or Christmas plus or minus a week. Murphy switches, I havent seen a set of those in a while! This is off topic but you wouldnt happen to have a set of steel "oneway" or sometimes called "diskall" wheels in your treasure pile would you?

[Cayoterun]

pm sent.

[Rockdriller]

abus...

That thing is great.
I would love to get my hands on an air cleaner like that.
I haven't seen one like it.
If anyone has or knows where to get one...lemme know.

Thx for the pics, abus.

[abus319]

Rockdriller
The label on it indicates that it is a "cyclopac" built by Donaldson. I did a search for the part number but didnt come up with anything usefull. They are still in business though. It might be worth a phone call if your interested.
filter body #FWB-12 0258, element #P15-3564

[Rockdriller]

Rockdriller
The label on it indicates that it is a "cyclopac" built by Donaldson. I did a search for the part number but didnt come up with anything usefull. They are still in business though. It might be worth a phone call if your interested.
filter body #FWB-12 0258, element #P15-3564

I sure thank you for the info....
I'll do that.

[abus319]

Now that were through the Holidays and some of the more demanding chores are behind us, it looks like I might finally get the 478 into the shop.
It was wonderful to meet up with Cayoterun and his wife over the Christmas holidays. We got to hear the V12 pickup project run, WOW. I had forgotten how those motors shook the ground, it was awsome! We talked motors, shared stories, and walked through a lifetime of treasures. Thanks to their generosity, I now have a rolling engine run stand so, once I get it flushed out and cleaned up I will start posting some pics and we'll see if we cant breathe some life into the beast.

[Cayoterun]

Now that were through the Holidays and some of the more demanding chores are behind us, it looks like I might finally get the 478 into the shop.
It was wonderful to meet up with Cayoterun and his wife over the Christmas holidays. We got to hear the V12 pickup project run, WOW. I had forgotten how those motors shook the ground, it was awsome! We talked motors, shared stories, and walked through a lifetime of treasures. Thanks to their generosity, I now have a rolling engine run stand so, once I get it flushed out and cleaned up I will start posting some pics and we'll see if we cant breathe some life into the beast.

Abus: Glad you made it home in good shape. It was a great Okie Panhandle "Bull session" with both of you.

NOW, get in gear, and let us hear your old 478 breath fire, thunder, and rattle the shop windows. I'm sure it will bring back many memories of hearing those old engines roaring day and night pumping water back when we were much younger. I'm sure you've changed about 40 water tubes from an open ditch, the water got ahead of you, then the ditch broke. Great fun trying to plug the hole, Huh?

What always amazed me, and still does, is how long those things would run between overhauls. I was never around one that had an hour meter on it, but wish I had. Wish I knew. We tried to estimate them on this V12, but no way to be real accurate, so tried to be conservative. Conservative truth will raise enough eye-brows, and see the questioning looks on people's faces. Makes you wonder if your "honesty" factor hadn't just fell in the sewer in their minds.

Hope you don't find any serious snafu's on your motor as you get further along.

[Rockdriller]

Abus: Glad you made it home in good shape. It was a great Okie Panhandle "Bull session" with both of you.

NOW, get in gear, and let us hear your old 478 breath fire, thunder, and rattle the shop windows. I'm sure it will bring back many memories of hearing those old engines roaring day and night pumping water back when we were much younger. I'm sure you've changed about 40 water tubes from an open ditch, the water got ahead of you, then the ditch broke. Great fun trying to plug the hole, Huh?

What always amazed me, and still does, is how long those things would run between overhauls. I was never around one that had an hour meter on it, but wish I had. Wish I knew. We tried to estimate them on this V12, but no way to be real accurate, so tried to be conservative. Conservative truth will raise enough eye-brows, and see the questioning looks on people's faces. Makes you wonder if your "honesty" factor hadn't just fell in the sewer in their minds.

Hope you don't find any serious snafu's on your motor as you get further along.

Golly, it sounds like we sure missed the boat.
That had to be a great BS Session.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that hour meters were seeing #'s reaching high into the tens of thousands of hours between O-Hauls..

Happy New Year to all of you.

[Cayoterun]

Rockdriller: Your right. The guys here that ran them compared YEARS, instead of hours.
Most of them would run 24/7 around 6mo. a year, except every 2 weeks, kill them, drop the oil and filter, grease the drive shaft, check coolant, and go again. Never cool down. They sit out in the weather all year, except some guys had frame and roof/w open sides over them. Sure didn't take a new guy long to learn how to drop the drain plug, and filter can without getting too much hot oil on himself. Between changes, oil was added while running by watching a site gauge on the pan.

Another V12 I fixed up, we know was on a pump for over 20 yrs, but no way of knowing how many overhauls it had. The 478s were just as tough.

[Ed Snyder]

Speaking of how tough these engines are, a fellow member of our Southern Oregon Chevy/GMC Truck Club has over 600,000 miles on his '65 GMC panel. The 305E in it has never been overhauled. He said it's starting to get a "little tired" now, though. :thumbsup:

[Cayoterun]

Speaking of how tough these engines are, a fellow member of our Southern Oregon Chevy/GMC Truck Club has over 600,000 miles on his '65 GMC panel. The 305E in it has never been overhauled. He said it's starting to get a "little tired" now, though. :thumbsup:

Good example, Ed!

I can't imagine why it would be getting a little "blow-by" and needing a quart now and then.

[Rockdriller]

'Yote,
When the V-12 was coupled to an irrigation pump, did they use a closed coolant system with a radiator....or was it cooled via open system (using pump water)....like a Marine Set...?

[Cayoterun]

[QUOTE=Rockdriller;51777]'Yote,
When the V-12 was coupled to an irrigation pump, did they use a closed coolant system with a radiator....or was it cooled via open system (using pump water)....like a Marine Set...?[/QUOTE

Rock:
I'd call it a closed system, but no conventional radiator.
On the pump discharge pipe, (the end well water came OUT of), they have a pipe about 6 feet long and 3-4" bigger in diameter than the pump discharge pipe. The inlet and outlet pipe on the "cooling coil" is the same diameter as the pump pipe so well water passes thru this large chamber @ about 50 degrees. Inside the bigger chamber, it has 5 or 6 copper pipes about 2" in diameter running horizontally inside the big chamber and connected to an inlet and outlet welded outside of that chamber wall for the engine coolant hoses to connect to. The coolant is isolated inside the copper pipes from the well water, and anti-freeze can be used. Fresh well water, and coolant never mixes. So, the engine coolant is cooled by well water, as it passes over/around the continuous copper "cooling pipes".
The thing is shaped like a great big muffler to look at it from the outside, and this system is used on all well motors, regardless of size.

They do have a "surge tank" on the front of the motor so the coolant can expand and contract, as well as access for adding water, etc., that holds 5-6 gallons of coolant, but no or very little help in cooling. but it's all inter-connected.
The whole system holds 15 gallons or more.

This is a lot of words, and probably clear as mud, but hope you get the idea.

[North Alabama Gearhead]

When I worked at a GM plant with maintenance, we sometimes had assemblies that would be stuck from seizing due to heat as well as rust. Another product you might want to try vs. Mystery Oil, is KROIL. I have attached the link to their website.
http://www.kanolabs.com/

[Rockdriller]

[QUOTE=Rockdriller;51777]'Yote,
When the V-12 was coupled to an irrigation pump, did they use a closed coolant system with a radiator....or was it cooled via open system (using pump water)....like a Marine Set...?[/QUOTE

Rock:
I'd call it a closed system, but no conventional radiator.
On the pump discharge pipe, (the end well water came OUT of), they have a pipe about 6 feet long and 3-4" bigger in diameter than the pump discharge pipe. The inlet and outlet pipe on the "cooling coil" is the same diameter as the pump pipe so well water passes thru this large chamber @ about 50 degrees. Inside the bigger chamber, it has 5 or 6 copper pipes about 2" in diameter running horizontally inside the big chamber and connected to an inlet and outlet welded outside of that chamber wall for the engine coolant hoses to connect to. The coolant is isolated inside the copper pipes from the well water, and anti-freeze can be used. Fresh well water, and coolant never mixes. So, the engine coolant is cooled by well water, as it passes over/around the continuous copper "cooling pipes".
The thing is shaped like a great big muffler to look at it from the outside, and this system is used on all well motors, regardless of size.

They do have a "surge tank" on the front of the motor so the coolant can expand and contract, as well as access for adding water, etc., that holds 5-6 gallons of coolant, but no or very little help in cooling. but it's all inter-connected.
The whole system holds 15 gallons or more.

This is a lot of words, and probably clear as mud, but hope you get the idea.

It's as clear as beer...
It sounds like it uses a heat exchanger type system.
You sure did explain it just fine.

Thanks 'Yote.

[abus319]

NOW, get in gear, and let us hear your old 478 breath fire, thunder, and rattle the shop windows. I'm sure it will bring back many memories of hearing those old engines roaring day and night pumping water back when we were much younger. I'm sure you've changed about 40 water tubes from an open ditch, the water got ahead of you, then the ditch broke. Great fun trying to plug the hole, Huh?
Yote( I like that)
Yeup we used open ditch irrigation for two years. The worst part of it was digging the ditch. We used a 35hp DC Case which was waaaay to light, and every time the ditcher hit a big rock the front end would head for the sky. It would be a rodeo till either the rock came loose or I chickened out. If it was more than a few feet off the ground the impact would break all the bolts in the front end....

I got really good at plugging the hole/ break. I would start a bunch more tubes and let it draw down and shovel like crazy.

I did manage to get a little work done on the 478 today. Got the old pallet bolts loose, the stand flushed and the extra brackets off and cleaned up. Its ready to lift and bolt to the stand.

[Cayoterun]

NOW, get in gear, and let us hear your old 478 breath fire, thunder, and rattle the shop windows. I'm sure it will bring back many memories of hearing those old engines roaring day and night pumping water back when we were much younger. I'm sure you've changed about 40 water tubes from an open ditch, the water got ahead of you, then the ditch broke. Great fun trying to plug the hole, Huh?
Yote( I like that)
Yeup we used open ditch irrigation for two years. The worst part of it was digging the ditch. We used a 35hp DC Case which was waaaay to light, and every time the ditcher hit a big rock the front end would head for the sky. It would be a rodeo till either the rock came loose or I chickened out. If it was more than a few feet off the ground the impact would break all the bolts in the front end....

I got really good at plugging the hole/ break. I would start a bunch more tubes and let it draw down and shovel like crazy.

I did manage to get a little work done on the 478 today. Got the old pallet bolts loose, the stand flushed and the extra brackets off and cleaned up. Its ready to lift and bolt to the stand.

Bus: Hey, that's progress, looks good!, I have to remind myself often that every project is built "one bolt at a time".
Ain't it good to have some extra play time, and not be watching the clock to go start running the "check list" for work?

Rock: You can see the surge tank on Bus' stand, and that one integrates the legs of the tank so each leg is an in and out in the circulation circuit.

[abus319]

[QUOTE=Rockdriller;51772]Golly, it sounds like we sure missed the boat.
That had to be a great BS Session.

Rock, It was great, cant wait till I get back up there and wade in a little deeper!

Did you have any luck with the air filter?

This stand is a lot different (larger)than the ones we used on our irrigation motors. We never ran the Jimmies, we ran 605 Molines and 413 industrials. In one case we had 2, 413's hooked together with a short shaft.
Cooling was the same as Yote described although I dont think the transfer pipe was copper in our case.

[abus319]

[QUOTE=Cayoterun;51796]Bus: Hey, that's progress, looks good!, I have to remind myself often that every project is built "one bolt at a time".
Ain't it good to have some extra play time, and not be watching the clock to go start running the "check list" for work?

Running the checklist and getting ready to go was the fun part of that job. It was all the prep that took all the fun out of it. I am happy to be retired although I did think I would have the "gotta get done list" trimmed down, instead it grows larger!
Actually I would've gotten it all boted up and in the shop but it was muddy. I didnt want to have to clean up all that mud out of the shop.

[abus319]

I am going to need a flywheel atleast temporarly, to start the 478. I am not finding much info other than they can be rare. Anybody know what options might be out there
I am also going to need freeze plugs or a part number, my parts book only covers the 305 and the 351.

[bigblockv6]

The 478 has to have a flywheel with a 8 mounting holes to the crankshaft and have external balancing. This flywheel is common to 379, 432 and 478 engines only. 305 & 351 engines only have a 6 bolt flywheel. Some 401 engines have the 8 bolt flywheel but are internally balanced so this flywheel will throw your 478 off balance. Freeze plugs are the same from 305 through 478 engines.

[abus319]

Thanks Big Block.
I will start looking around for one.

[Rockdriller]

I see what you're talking about.
That's just slick

BTW, abus....You know, I hate it when the boys from the hood spout off "nice rack, Dude".
Can't wait for the next update.

[bigblockv6]

Are you looking for an automatic 478 Flywheel? I do have one.

[bigblockv6]

Are you looking for an automatic 478 Flywheel? I do have one.

It is for an automatic, came off a 73 Tilt Cab 7500 series.

[abus319]

Bigblock
I might be interested. I don't have a specific application for the motor yet. I just need a way to start and run it a bit.
I wiil PM ya..

[WE7X]

If it is still available, what do you need to get for it? I have one that is cracked, and badly worn, as I recall.

Rod J
Issaquah, WA
RM7500 "Motorhome"

Are you looking for an automatic 478 Flywheel? I do have one.

[abus319]

It is for an automatic, came off a 73 Tilt Cab 7500 series.

I am interested, I sent a PM. What are you asking for it?

[bigblockv6]

Bigblock
I might be interested. I don't have a specific application for the motor yet. I just need a way to start and run it a bit.
I wiil PM ya..

My private messages may not be reaching you, I just sent you another one so let me know if you got it.

[abus319]

Bigblock, Nothing yet. I will PM you my email.

[Jeannie]

My private messages may not be reaching you, I just sent you another one so let me know if you got it.

Private messages are immediately delivered unless there is a error in the address of the recipient, your PM box is full, or no subject is specified. You will see an error notice after clicking submit if an error occurs. If your PM box is full you may need to delete some of your sent or received messages or upgrade your account to a Site Supporter.

-Jeannie

6066 GMC Club (http://6066gmcclub.com)

[turbobill]

For something like 15 years, I have had an Allison AT from a 6500 or 7500 chassis. Would that likely be an MT40? I know I received a cable shifter assembly with it, that is about 25 feet too short for my rear engine configuration.
If I recall correctly, I was told it would have been a 5 speed, but I am not sure. Were they five speed, or six?

The plan back then, was to put it into my RM7500 'Motorhome', along with a 478M; to replace my 401M and the 5x2 Manual transmission. No progress yet, on that plan.
Rod J
Issaquah, WA

Allison (under GM) made 4, 5 and 6 speed automatics. The first ones were the MT (Medium Truck) series (30 and 40). They were all six speeds, direct in top gear, and date to the mid 1950's and were produced into the early 70's

[abus319]

Soo it looks like I have a flywheel coming for the 478!!
Now I gotta go dig it out, it drifted to the end of the projects line.
Its so far back, there are not even lights (the shop lights are on the project line as well).

[abus319]

I got the flywheel this weekend, but didn't get around to putting it on until today. Actually its temporarily in place till I find some 1 3/4 bolts, or cut the 2' down.
I hope this is the way it bolts on I don't deal with automatics much. It was a bit confusing to have starter gear wear on both sides of the flywheel and no threaded flex plate mounts.
I got the rusty freeze plugs out and did a little cleaning.
(The red valve cover is off of the 3500 project)
I have a pretty long list of things that need to be taken care of before I fire it up, but its on its way!