5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

I'm getting back to my neglected 62 GMC 1000 panel after a decade of 4 house rehabs and a trade in interests from 70-81 Camaro to now 1970's Japanese motorcycles (Suzuki GS, Rickman framed superbikes, kz1000/z1/etc).

I need to pull the engine to replace a bad freeze plug in the rear, and at least do all new gaskets if not a total teardown and overbore/valve job/etc. Figured might as well give it the royal treatment and ditch the Saginaw 4 speed (slightly noisy, want stronger trans + o.d.) I swapped into it years ago in favor of a 5 speed o.d.

I want an affordable reliable swap that's not too involved, but I need something that can hold up to hauling, even an occasional car trailer loaded down.

Options:
*Tremec TKO500 $$$$$$$$$

*Dodge gasoline NV4500 with bell adapter from Advance Adaptors
-very tough, deep granny gear, very very heavy. I've read the rear engine crossmember needs chopped up substantially for clearance for this trans.

*Camaro/Firebird 88+ World Class T5 with S10 T5
tail section and shifter
-seems much more viable behind a hauler GMC V6 than a standard S10 t5, but have to buy two trannies to find a V8 Camaro/Firebird 88-92 World Class T-5 and S10*T5 tailshaft/shifter donor, and still have a transmission that I'd have to baby if ever hauling a car trailer (not very often, every few years.)


*New Process A833 MY6 4 speed o.d. with standard GM bell pattern
-harder to find, still only a four speed but with better highway gear. originally in GM G10 vans, with the basis of this transmission coming from Mopar muscle cars, so fairly strong.


*Tremec 3550 retrofit from a Mustang (from a yahoo group archived post of mine years ago):

For half of the cost of a new TKO500 and Tremec mid-shifter kit....* The older version of the TKO was called a 3550.* I have a NOS new in box Tremec 3550 for GM applications for my Camaro, as I have previously mentioned.* These trannies also came in a Ford Bellhousing bolt pattern and input shaft, and were used in several years of Mustangs.*
I've been talking to a guy at Modern Driveline, and they can set me up with a rebuild kit for a 3550, as well as a GM 1-1/8" 26 spline input shaft , and I believe I will need the GM diameter input bearing retainer as well, unless the Ford is the same 4-11/16" (doubt it).* They are telling me that the Ford trannies are close enough in bolt patterns that you can redrill a Ford version trans no problem for the GM bellhousing bolt pattern.* Now we're talking!!!! Alright, a viable used tranny that's rated for 425 ft-lbs in a 5200
lb vehicle!!!!* The 3550's weren't as good as a TKO-500, which handles 500
ft-lbs and has a much better shift rail design, but I can deal with tinkering with the shifter and shift rail to make it work for me!*

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Well it seems as if the A833 MY6 may be a better consideration after all. After researching a bit, it seems as if the only real difference between the standard A833 & the units they put behind 426 hemi's & 440 six packs was going to a 17t input shaft from a 23 if I recall that # correctly.

I read a review of a guy testing the waters on a $75 junkyard unit to see how tough it was. He put it in a 4000lb V8 Impala or Chevelle, did some drag launches that failed to hook up the tires (3.09 1st gear = mega torque / no traction), so he did the ultimate test that would always be sure to blow up several Muncie's he's had, holding the gas to the floor when shifting, resulting in 5000rpm shifts and chirping the tires in every gear, and the A833 MY6 survived quite well!

Also, this seems to be the same length as a Muncie, which if meant the same length as the Saginaw I have in mine, then I wouldn't have to have the drive shaft shortened whatsoever.

Only big drawback is that hard parts are tough to come by, only used... so running one of these for the long term would probably mean I would need to be scavenging junkyards to pull several of them to have gears/shafts parts available...

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Also, the world Class T5 with S10 main shaft & tail/shifter would still only have a lowest first gear of the WC Camaro boxes at 2.95, where as the A833 would have more of a light truck 1st gear of 3.09. The t5 is close to that but not quite, and probably not as strong. Even if it were possible to swap some S10 gears into it for a deeper 1st, the gear ratio alone would reduce the power handling capacity of the t5, and the gears themselves may not be quite as strong.

5 gears & very very common parts would be nicer than 4 with a huge jump from 1st to 2nd, and lesser parts availability, but the my6 makes a very strong case... the t85n and it's scarce od solenoid parts I will save for the more purists amongst us.


Lastly, it seems as if the Jeep AX-15 is now quite the viable swap candidate, except that the 2nd versions are far less common. The Novak adapter plate to mount these to a GM bellhousing says it also works with the New Venture 3550. Is this the same trans, different name/application, or just similar? Is the NV3550 the basis for the Tremec TKO'S predecessor the Tremec 3550 that I mentioned?
A quick Google search said something to the effect that the AX15 was nearly the same as the model that Toyota uses in the Supra or something to that effect. This is definitely something to look into.

if it weren't for the electronic only speedo and integrated bell on the NV3500, that would be the obvious answer.the auto transmission adapter kit for our gmc v6 blocks may work to mate those and extend the crank the proper amount with an adapter, but at $995 + $1000+ tranny, might as well get a TKO.

The NV4500 has been on my mind for years to swap in, quite the brute, but the weight and the tow truck 1st gear made this overkill gmc v6 retrofit less of a consideration.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Looks like I will start scouring the junkyards for an 81-87 c10 truck or 81-89 van with the np440 "a833 my6" trans. Might be upgrading to a 351E / 351M if I can find one. NV4500 or ax-15 jeep 2wd would be more of the ultimate conversion, but this will be very suitable and easier, and I probably don't have to modify the floor hump at all. The ax & NV look to require the taller floor hump

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap - A833 MY6 "NP440" 4 speed o.d.
 

Well... the. TKO-500 Tremec transmission ($2450+ $350 more for truck shifter locations) would be the top choice if I had a much larger budget, but after all this consideration, I have done more researching...

The A833 rpo code MY6 "NP440" 2 wheel drive 82-86 c10 chevy truck transmission (& rare 82-89 g10 4 speed vans) would be the perfect swap for me with a Saginaw in place currently, as it would bolt right up!
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1269872173

Note how one shift fork/linkage bracket us upside down from the other. For ease of redesign reasons, when they took the a833 4 speed and converted it to an o.d., they made o.d. the 3rd gear position, with 1:1 still as 4th. They did this to keep the arrangement similar with minimal changes, knowing that they could just reverse the shift linkage and have the shifter hit Overdrive 3rd gear in the standard 4th gear shifter position, and then the 1:1 4th gear would be shifted into in the standard 3rd gear shifter position.


These trannies are incredibly strong. The only downfall is the cases wear at a point where the end of a shaft rides in a register in the case, they get egg shaped. The cases can be machined and a steel bushing pressed in place to repair this.
Another downfall I've read (but not as common) is of the needle bearing wear on the input shafts, primarily blamed for GM's poor recommendation of Dexron III - mercron automatic transmission fluid vs a good gear oil (some say 50W gives much better shifts)
Lastly, for our GMC V6's, we need the more rare version of these. Most came with a GM bellhousing to block pattern, but a special bellhousing that adapted to the odd looking Chrysler pattern on most of these transmissions. Some of them were made with the standard gm transmission pattern, but more than not had the Chrysler pattern with the gm engine adapter bell.
Chrysler bolt pattern version requiring it's exclusive GM SBC pattern bellhousing:
http://i60.tinypic.com/334urn7.jpg

These things are getting harder to find. Some have aluminum cases, some have steel cases. I am not sure of the correlation between 2wd & 4x4, aluminum vs steel, in terms of the likelihood of finding the gm trans pattern that we need to bolt to our gmc v6 bellhousings.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap - Aisin AX15 Jeep/Dakota trans
 

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL91/.../102633369.jpg
I was turned on more and more to the Jeep AX15 transmission + $319 Novak GM bell adapter kit from a sole post from a 60-66 GMC Club member who mentioned in his thread abandoning either the NV4500 swap or A833 swap in favor of the Aisin AX15 + Novak Adapter kit.

Lots of info here:
https://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/...x15/kit-gmax15
http://www.novak-adapt.com/images/pi...4_assembly.jpg

This is not to be confused with the weaker AX5 Jeep 5 speeds that look nearly identical (they have a steel mid plate vs ax15=aluminum, & were not found behind 4.0&4.2L engines), nor the garbage 2-year-only Peugeot 5 speed Jeep trans, nor the 2 years following the ax15 where jeeps used an nv3550 (90-91/92?).

These ax15's hold up very well in modified jeeps including tons of them that see heavy trail rig 4 x 4 use and abuse. There are some modifications you can do to make them withstand even more power. These are almost identical to the same Aisin transmissions used behind the very powerful turbocharged Toyota Supra, Chevy Colorado trucks, and I believe Pontiac Solstice, as well as an Isuzu application (these go by ar5, am5, & ma5 or mr5 or something like that, NOT ax15, but they are very similar and you can swap guts of some of those to get a 4.02 1st gear ax15 even). Those have different input shaft lengths but I believe the bellhousing patterns are all the same. The tail-shaft housings are all different as well.

Being in Ohio, we get quite a bit of snow some winters, and I have had zero luck finding a 2 wheel drive jeep from 87 through 99 in the junkyards. I was becoming discouraged and was going to look into and old Tremec TKO3550 or figuring out how to afford a TKO500, and read a mention of Richmond Gear aftermarket transmissions, and another company that sells modified refurbished T45 Transmissions, which I have yet to look into.

Then I struck it big! Jeep being Mopar, they also stuck this trans into Dodge Dakota trucks behind the 238ci V6! Due to the fact that Dodge Dakota trucks do not have a massive cult following as Jeeps do, I was not able to find as much info on the Dakota variant, but I believe they were available 1992 through 2004, or 2006, and the only difference was the bellhousing.

The only thing to avoid is the input shaft on 3 years of the Dakota version 1996-1998 that were put behind the 2.5L 4 cyl were 14 splines vs 10. I am not sure if the 2.5L 4 cylinder version had any other differences aside from the 14 spline input shaft.
All of the Dodge Dakota 6 cylinder applications, as well as Jeep 4.0 & Jeep 4.2 liter engine applications will have the proper 10 spline input shaft that we are looking for to work with the Novak adapter plate.

Funny, it seems the plate was made for the opposite reason as why we are intetested in it. I would venture to say that Novak made this plate so that one could swap a GM engine (small block Chevy) onto the Jeep trans. We want it to swap a nice truck ratio o.d. 5 speed into a GM vehicle...

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap - Aisin AX15 Jeep/Dakota trans
 

These AX15's came behind factory 4.0L & 4.2L V6 Jeeps putting out 280ft-lbs stock & get abused by the modified 4x4 crowd with very few complaints of failures, generally only failures due to wear and tear from people who don't know how to drive stick. One Jeep guy posted that he is making 311ft-lbs dyno'd and has 186,000+ miles on his 4x4 jeep ax15 and zero problems, and says it never gets driven mildly. Good to hear. Our GMC 305 V6's put out about 280 ft-lbs. The 351E puts out about 320ft-lbs. I think with careful use, occasional heavy trailer hauling in my 4000lb 62 GMC 1000 panel truck even if I put in a 351E would work out great. Once every year or 2 I need to tow a car on a dolly or trailer, but a motorcycle trailer will be the more common hauling use. This sounds like the best all around transmission for anyone not needing the serious extra capacity of the brute NV4500, and for normal driving, the 3.83 1st gear will be fairly useable as a 5 speed, whereas if not hauling major loads, the 5.## NV4500 1st gear gets skipped altogether under normal driving and you basically have a much heavier equivalent to the a833 my6 4 speed or 700r4 gearing.

These AX-15's have a 3.83:1 first gear, so this is still a very viable medium duty truck transmission with a gearing that will help with hauling loads.
Most have an electric speedometer output, which makes most vintage car/truck enthusiasts cringe at the black box speedometer conversion piece needed, but fortunately if you remove the electronic speedometer output, you will see the same standard drive and driven gears as what a cable driven speedometer uses, and then you will find that the cable driven speedometer output from many other older Chrysler transmissions bolts right in in place of this electronic speedometer output! Being popular in Jeeps which get modified heavily with different size tires and wheels, all sorts of various speedometer gear sizes are readily available from many sources to calibrate a speedometer.

Novak Adapters sells the adapter plate and many other accessories for this transmission 2 bolt to GM bellhousings. Unrelated to us, advance adapters sells a bellhousing to block adapter to take the Chrysler bellhousing and bolt it to a GM Block. This is of no use to gmc big block V6 power, however.

HERE IS A DETAILED AX-15 SWAP INTO A 1965 CHEVROLET C10, basically same as what ours would entail:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=475370



http://gallery.lisaandmike.org/album...0/PICT6163.jpg
http://gallery.lisaandmike.org/album...0/PICT6164.jpg
http://gallery.lisaandmike.org/album...0/PICT6165.jpg


Aisin switched the AX15 to a larger pilot bearing inside diameter, and went from an internal bell slave cylinder setup to external slave cylinder & standard fork. I believe it was 92 on one of those mods (TO/slave cyland 1894 or 95 on the other. Novak sells both sizes of adapter pilot bearings or bushings to mate with GM crank shafts.
I believe the earlier versions were recommended to run GL5 gear oil, but some people complained that in 1997, they modified the transmissions for use with GL 3 gear oil. Apparently, the GL 3 is not even available from Chrysler anymore, and Jeep people complained about this transmission fluid not working as good anyhow. This made me wonder if 94 or 95-96 would be the best years of 4.0L & 4.2L Jeeps to source one from? Used pricing at local yards (pick n pull - $140-180) can be had for pretty cheap, and ebay/craigslist/expensive yards are asking $350-800 for these 2wd versions.

Apparently B&M make an aftermarket short throw shifter for these as well.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Novak even sell refurbished/modified versions of these for $1500! They show a picture of a 4x4 version, but I emailed them to see if they also have these available in 2 wheel drive, since they said to call or email before purchasing a transmission since there are so many different configurations available. This did not include any of the adapter pieces, but I still thought that was a fantastic price for a fresh transmission.

If doing 4x4 versions, the Dodge transfer case bolt holes are shifted slightly downward, but the Jeep guys say the flange is cast for either pattern, so redrilling for the standard jeep transfer case clocking position is very simple.

I am likely going to buy one of these. If I do find an a833 my6, I might end up using it so that I don't have to shorten my drive shaft a 2nd time, but this ax15 seems like the best in most passenger truck gmc big block V6 applications as long as one takes it easy when pulling heavy loads. The A833 I think may be a touch stronger but lacks the deeper 1st gear for help off the line, & the Jeep crowd really abuse these things with very low failure, so maybe they are just as good for the power?

One last note for this evening, the Chevy c10 swap guy noted that the 2wd version was hard to find a matching driveshaft yoke for, and that it was different from the 4x4 version yoke. Get one from the donor vehicle or else make sure you're buying one from a 2wd Jeep ax15 application. The Dakota 2wd yoke is likely the same.

I will be hopefully swapping one in this summer. May be acquiring one at a great price very soon.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Lots of great info here Chuck thanks!
I look forward to seeing how this swap works out. I have the NP440 MY6 in my suburban and yes it was s journey acquiring the correct parts. I followed the ClassicTrucks article to the letter and it works great.
Looking forward to your swap choice; seems like you've done the research. Thanks again for posting this up.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Hey Chuck,
I've used the Aisin AR5 GM code MA5, it's used in the 4 cylinder Colorado and the 5 cylinder Hummers. Put it behind a GMC using an adapter from Novak. This tranny is very similar to the Jeep AX-15. It's gone into a 65 GMC and they are plentiful and fairly inexpensive. I've attached a few photos of it during setup of my build. Good luck with your build.Attachment 4709

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Another consideration is keeping the SM420 4 speed and adding a Road Rangers OD brownie box that fits between the bell housing and tranny. It is a 2 speed unit, basically Neutral and OD. You will have 2 sticks, but the tranny is only pushed back around 7.5 inches. $1624 for the unit.

http://www.advanceadapters.com/produ...etainer-index/

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0o1o5W_f6o

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Did this use the exact same adapter plate that the Jeep transmission to GM bellhousing uses? That transmission is nearly the same thing as the ax15, however I thought that every variation of these transmissions have different length input shafts.

Knowing what you did for your swap will increase the odds of finding one of these transmissions quite a bit, as I did not realize the Chevy Colorado Truck Transmissions would be easily adaptable with off-the-shelf parts to our bellhousings. Most of the internals are the same or nearly identical to the ax15, but the tail shaft housing is different I believe. How many splines are the clutch and input shaft?

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

TJ, no SM420's here... I had an SM318 3 on the tree, but the 1st/reverse gear exploded on me... it had an sm318 originally, then a Camaro T5 2 owners ago, then an SM318 again from last owner, then I blew that up hauling a heavy load with a lead foot, my dad have me a free Chevy Vega Saginaw wide ratio 4 speed (1st gear around 3.31 or 3.34?), ran pretty great but a synchro and some bearings are worn.


With 275/60-15 Firestone Firehawk Indy 500's (my favorite performance tire, no longer available in 15 inch!!!), 3.07 one legged Dana 44, Saginaw 4 speed 1:1 4th, 305D with HEI & 500cfm Holley, I was able to push it above 21mpg driving it very conservatively. I think I got even 23mpg highway with 6 passengers and camping gear in the hills& mountains of West Virginia! I have never heard of anyone from the 60-66 Yahoo group days having ever gotten that kind of fuel mileage in a GMC big block v6.
With the 351, I wonder if adapting a very small Rochester Quadrajet 4 bbl to the manifold would help it with better mileage? With the low limited rpm of these engines, the cfm requirements are not terribly high, where most 283/289/327/350/etc v8 performance applications rev much higher, requiring far more cfm. We make all the power down low, lots of grunt on the bottom!

I am hoping with an overdrive 5th, a deeper 1st gear when needed, & a tighter gear spread 2nd- through 5th with an AX15 2wd Jeep/Dakota trans, that I can get similar fuel mileage with this new former museum exhibit 351C that I just arranged a deal on.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Dang! 3.07 is steep! I have an Sm420 in my 3/4 ton with 4.11s. Tranny grinds into 4th, but haven't had issues yet...and I've lead footed 9,500 pounds. lol I'm going to do the road ranger setup as I love the fact of being able to split gears when I need to, and get an od out of it. :thumbsup:

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Chuck,
The Aisin AR5-MA5 uses the same adapter from Novak as the AX-15. Also the tailshaft from the Chevy & GMC trucks is the same. The shaft changes if you go with the tranny from the Pontiac Solstice and the input uses a 26 spline shaft. One thing to remember this and the AX-15 aren't heavy duty trannys if you plan on doing some heavy hauling.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

I know it has no torque rating like aftermarket trannies do, and wasn't put behind any big engines (the 5 cylinder h3 (?) Hummer is probably the biggest vehicle it came in), but I keep reading reports of how much abuse these take from modified Jeeps, highly modified 500-1000hp turbo Supra's, even early Dodge hemi's:

"My Jeep has one, with a conversion to a 355 SBC. Beat the snot out of it, on and off road."

"I had a buddy that ran one behind his 4.2 in a Jeep on 33X15.5's. Woefully undergeared, the trans held up beautifully. U joints, however, didn't."

"Through experience I know that they handle some abuse, that's for sure. I'm considering another one for a future project. People are missing out on a great transmission."
(From the Jalopy Journal / H.A.M.B, in reference to swapping these into older GM vehicles)

"The AX15 is pretty stout, and as was mentioned, very popular with the off-road crowd and rock-crawlers.
The AX15 is also refered to as an 'R' series, used by Toyota. The hot-rod Supra guys are putting nearly a 1,000 hp into modified R154 units.:eek:"

"Talk to gary73RR, he uses them in hemi aplications and recomended one from a dodge dakota for my early hemi"

"These guys here:
http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/ax15.htm
Offer a kit to put that tranny behind a corvette LS1... Wow!
That would mean this beast is capable of handling 400 ft/lbs at least."

"The AX15 in my 95 Jeep has 264,000 miles on it and still works great. I like it better then the T-5's I've had in 5.0 Mustangs. I would like to put a AX15 in my 1947 Ford pick-up, but no kits are made to bolt it up to a Flathead."

"My experience with these trannys is they are rugged but poor shifters... Synchros can be balky, especially when gear oil is cold....Redline gear oil helps a lot but I wouldn't call them slick shifting."




The input shaft lengths vary with application but some swapping can be accomplished.
Here is some 'family' info:
AX15 = 7.875"
Pre 1995 R150\R151 = 6.5"
1996 up Toyota R series = 7.5"
87-92 Turbo Supra R154 = 7.25"
Toyota W series = 6.5"
Toyota G series = 6.5"
AR5 = 8.2"
MA5 = 8.2"

The Jeep/Dodge AX15 5-speed, the Jeep NV3550 5-speed, the Jeep NV1500, the Toyota R150F, R151F & R155F, the 87-92 Toyota Supra Turbo R154, the Isuzu AR5 and the Pontiac Solstice\Saturn Sky\Chevy Colorado\ GMC Canyon MA5 5-speeds all share the same case to bellhousing bolt pattern (Large Pattern). As such there are a number of possibilities that can be had when a 5-speed is desired

I was leaning toward the A833 MY6 / NP440 or possibly an NV4500, and would probably still be wanting an NV4500, but the gear spreads on this trans are the most appealing with its deeper not quite granny 1st, & tighter ratios 2nd thru od 5th.

I haven't looked at specs in a Richmond Gear tranny for ages, but in the early 2000's I recall them costing around $1900, so I'm sure they cost nearly the same as the TKO nowadays.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Wow... I looked at the Richmond Gear catalog, & I am impressed. If I wanted a 3.33 1st gear, the Super Street 5 speed (o.d. version of their 1:1 5th 5 speed) is very nice, same critical dimensions as a Super T10 / Muncie / Saginaw / A833-NP440.

The real gem was the 6 speed ROD transmission.... wow.
4.06 (or even 4 41) 1st gear options, 2.75 2nd, 1.99 3rd, 1.24 4th, 1:1 5th, .76 or .81 o.d....

I'd better look up the price tag so I can stop drooling. The only thing my limited perspective on gear ratios wonders is why they don't have a 3rd option for 4th gear in between those 2, as they have a ton of options for every other gear
http://6066gmcclub.com/attachment.ph...1&d=1465047140


EDIT - the only thing I am left wondering is if they have any other available shifter locations then at the very rear of the tail shaft housing. That would be a slight deal breaker, definitely a major deal-breaker if someone had a bench seat truck. They list a GM truck application in their fitment list separate from the others, maybe it has a different shifter location.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Yeh your right there about the uses for the AR5. I checked long and hard before using one on my 65 and found people using them on GM LS engines and Dodge Hemis, so the GMC V6 shouldn't be a problem at all. Mine came from an 09 Colorado and only had 50,000 miles on it and only cost me $300. Had to have the driveshaft shortened and that was $100. It seems to be a really good option to give us the OD in 5th gear.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Yeh the Richmond is a great option. I checked it out prior to going with the AR5. However it is beaucoup bucks. It was just to much money for me at the time and I'm happy with my choice.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Oh wow... Richmond ROD 6 speed would be the ultimate, & they have it just 10 minutes down the street from me at Jeg's High Performance, FOR A MEASLY $4,450.00!!!!!!!

With the 3.37 1st gear, standard GM bell pattern and 1.125" 10 spline input, multiple internal rail shifter locations, and half the price of the Richmond 6 speed, the Tremec TKO500 seems like the best new aftermarket option. They are more sensitive to bellhousing alignment howeve, and you really need to use a runout gauge on the crank to make certain your bell is aligned within their spec. Offset dowels are available to do so.all transmissions suffer from excess wear if the bell input bearing retainer register is not perfectly centeted, but on the TKO's it makes the shifting obviously less smooth.

For the money I can justify spending, the Jeep&Dakota AX15 &it's sibling the Colorado/Hummer AR5 seem to be the best option. I am still considering an NV4500 for it's more guaranteed brute strength, & will snatch up any a833 my6 / np440 that I see in junkyards regardless of what I want to run in my GMC...

OD trans, engine configurations, highway fuel mileage goals
 

The museum-restored 351C with it's 312ft-lbs torque@1600rpm is having shipping arrangements made to get to me next week. If I find a Magnum top end for it, that will be an extra 40hp (not 20 as I previously stated) & 8 ft-lbs (320ft-lbs @ 1600rpm). The HEI & Holley 500cfm may add a slight bit more power to that (moreso adds response and drivability).
I think a cam regrind with very similar timing but .020" more lift might be the 1st mod I would do if I desire more power out of the 351C/AX15 setup. Honestly the 305D with Holley 500 & HEI has plenty enough pep backed by a 1:1 4sp, 28" tires, & a 3.07 rear, but it's more the hauling torque and low highway rpm capability I'm concerned with. A 351C @ 312ft-lbs & 351E @ 320ft-lbs makes it seem to me that the Magnum top end with it's extra 40hp is less critical for my goals than a larger camshaft lift would be to improving torque output. I keep wondering if a 401M or 432 cam has higher lift specs than a 351 & if it is interchangeable.
I got a random email from a fella I have to write back to, I am guessing from the 67-72chevytrucks.Com or Stovebolt.Com forums. He said he has no problem with his modified 305A pulling a camper trailer after his mods to add 16% hp & 20% more torque. The biggest thing he said he mills the heads .120" (sounds like A LOT! I question intake manifold alignment at that point) to get 9:1 compression, and does a custom cam regrind and adds .020" lift for more of an RV grind profile. I may entertain milling .080" or .090" off the heads if I have them off (or find Magnum heads).

These engines make monster torque just beyond idle, so a 3.07 and a 5spd overdrive 5th turning 1375-1700 @ ~70mph in 5th would be awesome for my road trip drivability. I would like to add a limited-slip carrier to my rear end when I get it rebuilt, so I will then have the option to adjust the gearing to my adjusted preference of highway rpm once I have tested out the ax15 or similar Overdrive. I think the key would be figuring out how low of RPM the engine can go and still make enough power to overcome wind resistance at 70 mph. 312ft-lbs @ 1600rpm is mammoth, so I think one could drop to 1450 on the highway and not have to step into the throttle too hard to maintain that. Being able to slow down to 55mph and still have enough torque output to maintain 5th gear at a low engine RPM may be the actual target I need to focus on in terms of drivability vs a tunnel vision goal of lowest rpm I can efficiently run @ 65mph highway cruising in 5th

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

I would keep cruising RPM at a Minimum of 1500. I've noticed with my 305E since I've done the 4 barrel and dual exhaust that 1700-2100 is the sweet spot, and then for highway 2400 is Easily achievable. And that's with 4.11's and a 29-30 inch tire. I'm going to be putting 32's on soon. When under load the engine likes to be at 2000 and maintains very well without having to stomp on it when a grade comes. I'm considering Magnum heads for my 305 and milling them down so I don't Loose any compression. The larger ports, bigger valves, and bigger exhaust manifolds outta gain me a bit of power. And the bore size should be plenty big for that addition. Far as I know All cams from 305 to 478 were the same. You should try Delta Cams and see if they can Make you one. I know they will regrind, but they might produce as well.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Good to know. I'll have to play around with both figures in mind, then adjust the rear end gearing if needed when I swap in a limited slip carrier.

Re: OD trans, engine configurations, highway fuel mileage goals
 

Alright I had to calculate it for the ax15 and 275/60r15's

Currently, I'm spinning 2580rpm @ 70mph
on 28" tire, 3.07 rear, & standard 4 speed,
achieving a best of 21+mpg on an HEI/Holley 500 305D.

28" tire + 0.79:1 o.d. + 3.07 Dana 44:
1000rpm = 34.35mph
1500rpm = 51.52mph
2000rpm = 68.69mph
2038rpm = 70mph
2500rpm = 85.87mph
3000rpm = 103.04mph
3500rpm = 120.21mph
4000rpm = 137.29mph

28" tire + 0.79:1 o.d. + 3.31 Dana 44:
1000rpm = 31.86mph
1500rpm = 47.78mph
2000rpm = 63.71mph
2197rpm = 70mph
2500rpm = 79.64mph
3000rpm = 95.57mph
3500rpm = 111.50mph
4000rpm = 127.42mph

28" tire + 0.79:1 o.d. + 3.54 Dana 44:
1000rpm = 29.79mph
1500rpm = 44.68mph
2000rpm = 59.57mph
2350rpm = 70mph
2500rpm = 74.47mph
3000rpm = 89.36mph
3500rpm = 104.25mph
4000rpm = 119.14mph


28" tire + 0.79:1 o.d. + 3.73 Dana 44:
1000rpm = 28.27 mph
1500rpm = 42.40 mph
2000rpm = 56.54 mph
2476rpm = 70 mph
2500rpm = 70.67 mph
3000rpm = 84.81 mph
3500rpm = 98.94 mph
4000rpm = 113.08 mph


So my take on that is that the 3.07 would be viable to give me the absolute best 70 mph cruising mileage, but the 3.31 will be better all around & won't require downshifting on big hills or on winding country roads coming out of turns or climbing up hills. The 3.31 really would be more fun to drive at 45 to 65 mph.

The 3.54 (74.47mph@2500rpm) & 3.73 (70.67mph @ 2500rpm) would still be lower rpm's on the highway than a 3.07 + 1:1 top gear transmission (67.83 mph @ 2500 rpm), and would increase the fun factor and hauling capability

Re: OD trans, engine configurations, highway fuel mileage goals
 

Certainly a 3.73 rear gear would make it substantially more fun to drive and give it more power towing, but respectable fuel economy on these monstrous gas guzzlers is something I would really like to achieve. If I could get 21mpg highway with a .79 od 5th and a 3.54 rear gear, that would be AWESOME, but I think I may need to need to shoot for the 3.31 in order to achieve my road trip highway fuel mileage goal. I suppose I could inflate the rear tires to the max on long highway drives in order to slightly up the tire diameter!

I will have to consider the added fuel consumption swapping to a 351C over the old 305D when considering gearing, fun/power, & fuel economy.

It appears to be a toss-up between the 3.31 and the 3.54. I feel that with the 3.31/351C/ax15, I can get the same fuel mileage that I currently have with a smaller engine and standard transmission. The 3.54 will certainly be more fun. The ax15 lower gears will make it more fun on top of that compared to my current setup, and I really had no complaints before about the acceleration power without a load.

Re: OD trans, engine configurations, highway fuel mileage goals
 

One last important factor to consider when choosing rear-end gear ratios with an overdrive transmission.
The higher numerically the first gear in the transmission is, the more leverage the transmission has on itself to self destruct under heavy load and abuse.
Running a 3.54 Dana 44 gearing behind the ax15 will be a slight bit more forgiving when getting on it when hauling a heavy load, compared to the same condition with a 3.31 differential gearing.

Re: NV4500 vs AX15/AR5
 

AX15 Gear ratios are:
3.83 / 2.33 / 1.44 / 1.00 / 0.79
(1st can be swapped to 4.31 & 5.15, od to .83)
(All gears can be swapped from the g452 Toyota Dyna truck transmission to get:
5.15 / 2.74 / 1.93 / 1.00 / 0.83 // reverse 5.04 / ***Dyna is an international model, unsure of US version)
It weighs approximately 96lbs.

NV4500 Gear ratios from 1995+ are:
5.61 / 3.04 / 1.67 1 / .74 // Reverse 5.61
(93-94 had a 6.34:1 1st & non- synchronized reverse)
It's weight is 195lbs.

There are zero used Dodge gasoline 2wd versions of this on eBay currently. There is one company selling modified remanufactured units at $1,000 plus a $500 core charge, plus shipping.
So you can pretty much plan on this costing you about $1,700 plus the adapter from Novak. $2,000 basically if you want an already modified and rebuilt NV4500. You spend $500 less than a brand-new TKO 500 to get a deep granny gear heavy duty truck transmission basically, $500-700 more for the TKO500 get you a brand new transmission with no adapter and more sporty ratios, and more flexibility in the shifter location.
Certainly you could find a used Dodge gasoline 2wd nv4500 and rebuild & modify it yourself and save at least $500

There's apparently a design flaw with fifth gear in particular, slightly with 4th, and that there is excessive wear on some internal shaft parts. There are several fixes for this problem, and the eBay auction that I reference the price on states that they upgrade several parts internally including a fix for this problem.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Chuck,
To give you an idea of total cost for a 5 speed replacement here's an overview of what it cost me to go to a GM Aisin AR5 5 speed, clutch assembly, driveshaft, throwout bearing, pilot bearing, gear oil, rear end gears, and Novak Adapter.
I spent the following on the different components:
1) AR5 Colorado Transmission - $300
2) LUK Clutch Assembly - $110
3) Driveshaft - $100
4) Hydraulic Throwout bearing - $200
5)Pilot bearing - $10
6) Red Line gear oil - $45
7)Rear End 3.73 Gears - $200
8) Novak GMAX15 Adapter - $325
So if you add all these parts up it comes up to a grand total of $1290.
So all in all the overall expense wasn't bad and the benefits of the 5 speed has definitely been worth the expense especially when you look at the prices of the Tremec or Richmond transmissions.
This is all basically food for thought and have good luck with you decision.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Great! Mine will be about $500 less up front, $300 less in the end if I decide to swap 3.31's or 3.54's into the Dana 44. Already have had my flywheel & press.plate resurfaced, gmc clutch remanufactured @ Hite Parts Exchange. Using GMC slave cyl & TO bring / fork, maybe new TO brng
Might buy a new Rhinopac clutch kit while they're still available though just to have it.

As it is now, 3.07 rear end Saginaw 4-speed, even with the 3.07 still, the ax15 will give me much lower highway RPM, a much deeper first gear, and much closer gear spreads after that. With a 3.54 rear end I will really realize a lot more hauling potential, especially behind the 351C. Heck, I probably didn't need to jump on that 351C with this gear combination! I bet it will halt much better even with a 305D + ax15

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

I didn't have enough time to test the 351 and swap the front covers and all before a vintage motorcycle event that I wanted to drive the truck to (in case I bought more bikes or parts at the swap meet!), so I replaced all 4 freeze plugs on the front and backs of the heads on the 305D as it was suspended over the engine bay, and stuffed it back in. She runs great still now that I can keep the coolant in it! Amazing how deteriorated the old steel freeze plugs were. and how stuck the exhaust manifold to downpipe bolts were. I learned that the heat riser was jammed 20% closed on the pass. side also. Fixed that. Torched off the top nuts on the exhaust manifold to downpipe connections, and re-tapped the bolt threads on that side as the bolts just wouldn't come out in the time that I had.

I did not buy an AX15 yet, but I still believe that to be the preferred transmission for my needs and will be looking for one before October. I may do a fair amount of work to the trucks then and into late fall when the garage is still warm enough. Hope to swap the 351C, AX15, and 89 Suburban front disc brake crossmember all at the same time late October. Maybe get to repairing some rusty cab supports and replacing the body mount cushions then as well. Then hibernate in the basement all winter playing with a new to me metal lathe and milling machine and working on motorcycle project builds in the basement until spring! Next year, bodywork on the 82 VW pickup as my first paint job test piece, then bodywork on the GMC and paint on that! Wife says matte black is the only color allowed... Not certain I'm set on that but we'll see.

An A833 MY6 is also something that I'd jump on, but the AX15 is more likely to be found, and an NV4500 just seems like not much gain over an A833 as I won't use the granny gear first much at all and then I'm just left with a very expensive 4 speed that doesn't do much anything that the A833 MY6 wouldn't do.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

More info to spot AX5 vs AX15. Foremost, the AX15 will be behind 4.0L/4.2L Jeeps and the AX5 behind the small 4cyl's. AX15's came in some Dakota 4cyl 2.5L(?) engines but with a 14 spline input, the 3.9L etc V6 Dakotas in the years outlined on the 1st page had 10 spline AX15's that we need.

More info that I just dug up:
AX-5 Hex fill plug is often on the passengers side, cast iron mid plate
AX-15 Hex fill plug is always on the drivers side, aluminum mid plate



Here are the transmission tag #'s to help you too.
On the AX-5 & AX-15 there is a silver tag with green printing on the top of the tranny near the shift tower.
On the weak Jeep Peugeot I *think* the ID tag is riveted to the passengers side of the tranny.

53005360 AX15 1989-91
53005385 AX15 1989-91
53005386 AX15 1989-91
53007862 AX15 1992
53007863 AX15 1992-93
53007864 AX15 1992-93
53009528 AX15 1992-93
53009529 AX15 1992-93
53009530 AX15 1992-93
52108010 AX15 1993
53009526 AX15 1992-96
52108036 AX15 1994-96
52108047 AX15 1994-96
52108048 AX15 1994-96
52108050 AX15 1994-96
52109035 AX15 1994-96
52108465 AX15 1996
52107811 AX15 1997
52107812 AX15 1997
52108532 AX15 1997

52108022 AX5 1992-94
52108045 AX5 1994-96
52108046 AX5 1994-96
52108049 AX5 1994-96
52108121 AX5 1995
52109021 AX5 1994-96
53001190 AX5 1985
53001566 AX5 1984
53001671 AX5 1985
53002265 AX5 1985
53003024 AX5 1987-88
53003385 AX5 1986
53003386 AX5 1986
53003387 AX5 1986
53003388 AX5 1986-88
53004224 AX5 1987-88
53004358 AX5 1987
53004359 AX5 1987-88
53006169 AX5 1989-93
53006170 AX5 1989-91
53006173 AX5 1989-93
53006174 AX5 1989-91
53006176 AX5 1989-93

53002035 BA/10 1987
53002838 BA/10 1987
53003234 BA/10 1987
53005248 BA/10 1988
53005251 BA/10 1988
53005252 BA/10 1988
53005451 BA/10 1989
53005453 BA/10 1989
53005454 BA/10 1989

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Cast iron intermediate plate = AX-5

http://rs702.pbsrc.com/albums/ww27/m...h=480&fit=clip



Aluminum intermediate plate = AX-15

http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/w...l/P1000224.jpg

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Here's more AX15/AR5/MA5/R15# info, if you can sort out the Supra and 4x4 info:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-...0128?_k=qjgisg

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...7449?_k=qjgisg

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

I gotta tell ya , I LOVE the MY6 NP440 tranny as I have it behind an 292 in my 66 GMC 3/4 ton and Im gonna put an 350 in it this season . BUT MAKE SURE you decide whether you want that one available in Aluminum case or Iron case . I decide to go w Iron because of something to do w/ the input shaft or something . But the Aluminum one can be fixed by putting an sleeve in it and it will be tough as heck . Here is a pic s

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Chuck , here s a pic of my NP440 tranny
Dazzoman

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Fast forward 2.5 years, I still have this 351C engine on the stand in the garage, and the AX15 Dodge V6 Magnum transmission waiting... Probably getting ready to order this Novak adapter plate soon. I think I have a blown head gasket on the 305D after having it over heat twice on me in recent years (once due to a hole rusted through a steel freeze plug in the back of the head) and having the radiator plugged up after I let the engine sit completely drained out of antifreeze for a day or two and let all of the sludge inside dry up, later to be loosened up and start floating around and plug up my aftermarket aluminum TIG welding radiator...
Plus the synchros for 2nd gear in this Saginaw 4-speed are pretty worn out!

Also looking to get some body patch panels to patch a few areas down low that have develop some rust bubbles... As well as the front cab support area brackets.
Maybe even a 73-91 Suburban disc brake front crossmember will go in at the same time, as my worn-out $450 ball joints are a big concern! Pulling a 4x8 trailer full of motorcycles and parts, as wellas hauling building materials, are both critical uses for my GMC...

I also must admit that I got another HUGE distraction, a 1988 Suzuki Samurai... I'm trying to turn this into a good fuel economy semi daily driver and off-road toy, as my 1982 VW Rabbit diesel pickup truck is getting a bit Rusty and I am not looking forward to trying to fabricate or source from across the ocean all of the unibody repair panels that I would need to do it right...
so instead I am looking at putting a mechanical pump from a Land Rover 300tdi engine onto a VW ALH 1.9TDI engine, and adding a Toyota V6 transmission and either a Land Cruiser transfer case or Jeep ax15 rear half transmission case since they are of the same family, and adapter to an old school Jeep/IH Scout Dana 18 transfer case, since this Samurai has a full floater Toyota custom arear axle housing offset for the Samurai rear end passenger side drop, so that the front and rear differentials are both in-line, like a select few elite off-road machines like the old school Jeeps 1971 and older, most Toyota Land Cruisers, Land Rover Defenders, International Scouts, Samurai's etc...
Shooting for 34-36mpg on 31" tires, and decent pulling power out of the little miniature powerhaus VW TDI engines, which are extremely efficient at what they do and take extremely well to modifications as simple as adding more boost fuel... Without having too much effect on decreasing the fuel economy.
aftermarket aluminum body tub in the Canadian long-wheelbase version would be the long-term plan for the ultimate daily driver.
The GMC will be used for the heavier hauling, although the 1.9L TDI engine in a little Samurai could easily be tweaked to make the same power as the 351 V6... The big truck will be better handling with a load and will be a little more stout
Also got severely distracted the last few years riding dirt bikes in Wayne National Forest in other great areas at the edge of the Appalachians...

The GMC is ready to see the light of day again in a more glorious form than I have been driving it in...

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

I've been working on swapping an AX15 with a Novak adapter on to my 305E and I've run into a predicament, and wondering if you'd been able to fit the transmission to the engine yet...

It's my understanding that the GMC bellhousing can't be removed without removing the flywheel. Unfortunately the Novak adapter is designed to be mounted to the bellhousing with the bolt heads inside the bellhousing, requiring that the bellhousing and trans are mounted to the engine as a unit. The front of the AX15 transmission case partially covers the upper trans-to-bellhousing holes on the adapter.
I have considered using a die grinder to clearance the transmission case for socket head cap screws. One notch would get very close to one of the dowel pins that locates the trans to the adapter, but there shouldn't be any potential for breaking through the case.
Before I carve up my transmission I thought I'd check in here to see if I'm thinking about this correctly and if anyone else has solved this another way...

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Well, I took the plunge:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/gallery/...3D5B15862.jpeg

I followed my plan of making clearance for the socket head cap screws on the upper mount locations. I had to grind back on the ribs a bit to make clearance for both the bolt and the hex socket that I used to tighten down the bolts. Still seems like there is plenty of meat on the case, and I didn't get too close to any of bolts that hold the adapter to the transmission. I also had to drill out the threads in the upper holes on the Novak adapter.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/gallery/...EEC6B35A8.jpeg
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/gallery/...3BA8EC309.jpeg
I used the stock GMC clutch, pilot bearing and throwout bearing and it all appears to be functioning properly. Driveshaft is being built so haven't driven it yet. The original Comanche shifter looks like it will hit the seat so I'm going to have to do something different with that.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

Follow up information:
1) Snagged a shifter and shift tower from a Dakota. You have to get the entire assembly - the pivot points are different distances apart on the different shifters so you can't just put a Comanche shift cane into a Dakota shifter housing, etc. The Dakota shifter still ends up in the seat. I used a torch to heat and bend the shifter arm. The Dakota shifter is threaded, so might be easier to adapt a different lever later.

2) Plan to buy a shifter rebuild kit - the bushings were gone (literally disintegrated) in both the Dakota and the original Comanche shifters. It's super-easy to replace them. I also made a new gasket to seal the tower to the transmission case.

3) Changed to a 1-piece driveshaft using the slip yoke I referenced earlier in the thread and it worked out great. Stock clutch is holding up and works well so far.

4) Driving impressions have been few, but overall the transmission seems to be a decent match to the engine and the 3:73 gears / 29" tall tires on my truck. I still have a lot of tuning and refining to do on the truck so will report back if I find anything else worth mentioning.

Re: 5 speed/o.d. swap comparisons - WC/S10 T5 hybrid, NV4500, A833 MY6, Tremec 3550 Mustang
 

I installed a t5 from a 89 s10 and 89 astro van clutch a few months back , and i have about 500 miles on it no trouble , and great crusing speeds, easy swap