65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Hey guys,

I have a 1965 GMC K1000 4x4 with the 305E V6, and a 4spd manual transmission. The starter was shot so I replaced it (with a new WAI 4038N). The new starter makes a "clunk" when trying to start maybe 1 out of 4 times (not consistent). The other 3 times it starts just fine. In troubleshooting so far, I've done the following:
- bench-tested the starter (fires 10/10 times no issues)
- tested continuity for all the wires from the ignition switch to the starter (all good)
- replaced the starter switch with a new one
- sanded the blade connections on the female side (plastic block) where the starter switch plugs in to the wiring harness

Any ideas? When it makes the "clunk", it sounds like the bendex is hitting something and not extending all the way to engage the flywheel. Does it maybe need shims? There weren't any on the old starter.

Thanks in advance!

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Nose not engaged properly into hole. Pilot diameter has burr or casting blemish. Teeth on starter not properly chamfered for lead in. Bad/weak solenoid. Good on bench bad under slam load.
Hydraulic lock beginning on motor. check oil for milk. Wrong gear installed by starter maker.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Worn or Warped flywheel?

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

You have probably tried it. but it would be easy to try the starter at as many positions as you can. Marks or eyeball on damper could guide.
This would point to kknotts' idea.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Thanks, guys. Did a visual inspection of the flywheel and the starter - no issues. All teeth are present and in perfect condition on the flywheel - no warping. All teeth on the starter bendex are good, edges are chamfered as expected. No odd wear marks, etc. I'm stumped. Here's a video of it making the sound. If anyone has an idea please let me know. Thanks!

https://youtu.be/VRf6RJPdt6o

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Definitely an electrical problem. Please tell me that it also does that with the dash mounted starter switch and not just the remote switch. Paranoia says bad remote switch. If it does it with both, it's a sticky solenoid/bad solenoid. Wiring/cabling/ground thing.

NEXT is something you REALLY REALLY have to be thorough with so we can move on without missing it.
1. Triple check your battery at a reliable shop. The starter draws +/- 400 amps. Battery will show good charge but break down under load. Never trust a battery.
2. NO PAINT OR GREASE on starter mounting surface.
3. NO PAINT OR GREASE on bell housing mating surface.
4. Battery ground goes on starter mounting bolt. Clean bolt surfaces there.
5. Both ends of battery ground cable and it's clamps/ring terminal, tight, shinny clean, new good condition. CABLE: 2 ga min.
6. Both ends of battery positive cable and it's clamps/ring terminal, tight, shinny clean, new good condition. CABLE: 2 ga Min.
7. Battery posts, clean shinny, tight clamps.
8. Need ground straps from motor to frame, frame to body, NO PAINT.

You must not assume all is good, something is not good. So give these things we speak of a real test, not just a look.

If all that checks out, I say solenoid...or slap one on now. Maybe even a bad starter. We await your success. We will stay with you if you keep us updated.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

I'd try Ken's list one at a time or you will never know what the problem was.
Number one is being very sure of all four battery contacts.
It sounds like the solenoid is firmly engaging, but perhaps only occasionally making electrical contact with the starter windings.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Hey guys - quick update.

Yes, it does the same thing with the remote switch -AND- with the ignition switch. I have already tested continuity from the starter switch to each of the wires on the starter (and replaced the starter switch), but i tried the remote switch just to take the wiring out of the equation.

As for your other suggestions:

1. Tested the battery at home: voltage, CCA, starting system, charging system all "green", but I still need to take the battery to a shop to get tested. I also tried another battery I have on hand (used to bench-test the starter), but it has the same behaviour.

2. Done - was already bare metal, but I cleaned it with brake cleaner.

3. Done - had some paint, so I wire brushed it off, then cleaned with brake cleaner.

4. There's already a ground wire from the negative terminal to the intake manifold, a ground strap from the engine block to the frame, and another ground strap from the frame to the body. I added a ground cable (4ga - couldn't find a 2ga) directly from the negative terminal on the battery to the starter mounting bolt. Cleaned the bolt surface on both sides.

5. Cleaned both ends of the negative cable and made sure they were tight.

6. Cleaned both ends of the positive cable and made sure they were tight.

7. Cleaned up the battery posts and clamping surfaces and ensured they were tight.

With all that.... no change in behaviour. The starter is brand-new, but I thought maybe there was something wrong with it, so I grabbed ANOTHER new starter - same make/model (WAI Global 4038N). Even with the second new starter... no change.

I was stumped before, but now I'm really stumped. I'll get the battery tested at a shop, but other than that I don't know what else to try. If you have any more suggestions, I'm open to ideas. Thanks!

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

So logic says it's NOT the battery and NOT the starter because you tried different one's. Logic says it's not switches or solenoid if each new starter had it's own solenoid.
Logic says it's not ground because you cleaned and checked and tightened.
Logic says 90% chance it's electrical, 10% it's mechanical. Starter pulls +/- 450 amps on battery!!!!!!

These are my logic. Logic has to be tested.

We are in a brainstorming mode now after all you have reported. I'm blasting out thoughts. Brainstorming is an actual engineering technique for meetings and large groups to solve an issue. It may trigger the guys and gals here on 6066club to offer a new idea or test for you. Or see a missed point.

Not wiring because you bypassed with remote starter switch.
Remember I said check oil for milky. Don't want it to be hydraulic lock. I busted three starter noses before I caught on to that once.

Take ALL plugs out and take off dizzy tower wire and crank to see if you can get it to clunk once. Watch for something shooting out plug holes.

Other than that, could be
1. a bad spot on flywheel teeth.
2. You missed something.
3. Two bad batteries.
4. two bad starters.
5. battery cable broken inside the insulation or at clamp and can't see it.
6. Clutch sticking. Whatever that means.
7. Piston sticking, rotating component sticking like bearings
8. Oil or water in cylinder
9. Sticking valve causing compression/back pressure
10. Timing off causing compression/back pressure
11. Those internal compression/check valves in head are stuck
12. Fan belts too tight. Naw, can't be that.



This last batch of things are sketchy ideas I know but it's pointing to something very odd happening.
It does crank good and start good with no starter or grinding noise. Fires 10 x 10 on the bench. Do that plugs-out test and report. Gotta get some change to happen to get a clue.
Intermittent stuff is a pain. You may have to run it til it fixes itself or breaks more.
I have a headache now.

You haven't done anything to anything you forgot to say have you?

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

OK, time's up.
What did you find as the cause?

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Time is way up!!!!!!! Hope it's not the "newby syndrome". Join, blast question on several sites and forget when solved.

Fixed or not fixed and what they found. What's important is info for the next guy and to verify we took the right path.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Hey guys,

Sorry for leaving you all hanging. Unfortunately, it's still not resolved.

1. a bad spot on flywheel teeth.
A - I did a quick inspection through the starter hole (turned the flywheel over by hand), but I didn't pop off the inspection cover. That's easy enough to do, so I could double-check that way.

2. You missed something.
A - maybe? I don't know what I don't know. ;)

3. Two bad batteries.
A - Got the battery tested at the local shop - they say it's good.

4. two bad starters.
A - both new starters are brand-new, so the chance of this is low, but I suppose it's possible. I'm not willing to buy a 3rd brand-new starter to find out though.

5. battery cable broken inside the insulation or at clamp and can't see it.
A - possible... I've already added a negative/ground cable direct from the battery to the starter, so I could try replacing the positive cable as well I guess...

6. Clutch sticking. Whatever that means.
A - Are you suggesting the clutch is possibly sticking/grabbing the flywheel? I guess that's possible... there's no neutral safety switch or anything similar, so I don't bother holding the clutch in when I try to start it (I just check to make sure the transmission is in neutral first). I could try holding the clutch in while starting...

7. Piston sticking, rotating component sticking like bearings
A - everything rotates smoothly by hand

8. Oil or water in cylinder
A - changed the oil (looked used, but otherwise normal); compression-tested all cylinders a couple months ago, but I could do it again. I don't remember the numbers, but all 6 cylinders were all the same, which was good.

9. Sticking valve causing compression/back pressure
A - How would I check for this - I assume just pop the valve covers, disconnect the coil (so it doesn't actually start), and then turn it over on the starter? I could see all the valves moving... I suppose I could check compression at the same time.

10. Timing off causing compression/back pressure
A - I have not checked the timing, so I can do that and report back. It's something I've been meaning to do anyway.

11. Those internal compression/check valves in head are stuck
A - I'm not sure what these are...

12. Fan belts too tight. Naw, can't be that.
A - No squeak/squeal/etc from the belt. No power steering, power brakes or A/C, so it's just the one belt (about as simple as it gets). Tension feels ok...


Thanks again for all the help and suggestions, guys. I'm learning as I go on this one, so I appreciate it. At this point, it looks like I have a couple more things I could check when I find some time, but I'm also at the point where I may just leave it as-is until it breaks more or "fixes itself". /shrug.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Thanks for coming back to report. I'll have to give you credit for all the checking using our guesses. I would say the "clunk" is a "Click". It is the solenoid electromagnet pulling the plunger in and sending the gear into engagement. BUT the electrical contact made by this action is not sufficient for a 450 amp starter load on the electrical system involved. Only works when no load on bench.
Assuming it is in fact the correct starter and you received that starter, and some counter jockey is not giving you a 305 Chevy V8 starter.............

NO MATTER what a local shop or anyone says..........put on another battery from another vehicle!!!!!!!!!!!

If no change:
You need to concentrate 100% on power and ground to the starter.
1. You need to have new large Gauge cables.
2. You need to clean battery post
3. Bare metal on ground connection to motor/starter bolt
4. I see in pics of that starter that is is black all over. I don't know if it is paint or mill scale or cast color. Nevertheless YOU MUST sand to bare metal, the face of the starter that butts to bell housing. YOU MUST sand to bare metal, the face on bell housing. Brake cleaner does nothing.
5. Assuming you did not paint the starter or bell housing. Assuming no gasket, shims or grease on faces.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Grinder flap or Wire wheel the surfaces of starter and bell housing not wire brush. Post pics of all the positive hookups and negative hook ups. Good, clear, well lit pics. The click seems to show that the ignition switch is doing it's job to energize the solenoid, which is a giant relay. It is the starter power connection/cables/clamps/crimps... somehow breaking down...or the BATTERY!!!!!!!!! The switch to a known battery will give a great clue right away.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Quick update: I took the flywheel inspection plate off and put a camera under there to watch what happens when the starter "clunk" noise is made. Looks like the bendex is hitting the flywheel and not meshing properly every time....


https://youtu.be/kcM4qJzkjvc

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

The only time I've seen that happen before was a weak starter. It's not putting out enough spin to get up in the flywheel and catch every time. I'd buy a new one or have it re-wound and see if that works.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Agree, weak solenoid or weak associated solenoid connections breaking down. You can just replace the solenoid if all connections good.

According to the internet it's this

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

It's a brand-new starter (not rebuilt), and I bought a second brand-new one (same make/model) which does the exact same thing. I've tested all the connections (connectivity test on all wires from starter switch to the starter). Replaced the switch as well for good measure. Also tested with a remote switch hooked up directly to the starter and same issue.

Is it possible that the chamfering/bevel on the bendex isn't enough, and that's why the bendex is hitting the flywheel sometimes instead of meshing like it should?

Thanks again!

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Nice vid!
It almost seems like the first try bumps into a tooth but aligns the mesh just enough for the second try to fit.
Sometimes the first alignment is OK.
Maybe it doesn't hit a tooth, but doesn't move far enough to make the internal electrical contact which would boost the gear into meshing.
I can't remember what changes you made that preceded this unfortunate situation, but I admire your tenacity and am sure clear skies are just ahead.

I am not sure how much I should risk jinxing my Jimmy and me, but I don't remember replacing or rebuilding my starter in 52 years.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

What kind of starter did you buy? A quality brand or a cheap POS from China? There is a thing known as the "high price of cheap".:my2cents:

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Hi,

I had to replace the original started because it disintegrated... and then unfortunately while it was sitting on my bench it got thrown away (/sigh). So I bought this one from a GM dealer (WAI 4038N): https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...=6680672&jsn=3

That's when this issue started happening - when I installed the new starter. Thus began all the troubleshooting. In trying to figure out what's causing the issues I have:
- bought a SECOND new starter (same make/model)
- ran a new 4ga ground wire from the negative battery terminal directly to the starter mounting bolt
- removed all paint/grease/etc from the starter and the mounting surface on the bell housing.
- replaced the ignition switch
- connectivity tested all wires from ignition switch to the starter
- bench-tested starter with two different batteries
- in-car tested starter with a remote switch
- in-car tested starter with two different batteries
- had the main battery tested at a shop

I also just recently replaced the oil, oil filter, air filter and sparkplugs. Drained the gas and replaced with fresh. We got the truck over the winter, so that stuff was just the usual "give it a once-over" kind of stuff.

Sometimes it will start 8x in a row, then "fail". Other times it will fail 2-3x in a row, then start. Doesn't seem to be a specific pattern to it.

Thanks for all the help, guys.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Even though several sites say that is the correct starter, I have been suspicious of that part number from your first post. Suspicious that the vendors-for the vendors have got the wrong part number on that starter. I noticed that on Ebay and other sites selling that part number, that the application is way up in the 1990's. For BB V8's. That is highly, highly unusual. It makes me think that being "new" that they are using a pinion gear or solenoid or something for the 90's era flywheel or ???
Also see starters for 60's GMC straight 6 cylinder. Could be a mix up just about anywhere in the logistics. Just getting that off my chest.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Working on BB V6's over the past 40 years - mine and other peoples - I know you can use a starter from a 1965 - early 1970's BBC V6 but you need to replace the nose with the one from the V6 your working on - I have both BBC and GMC V6's and know that was common to use the guts from the BBC for the V6. Yes - you are very correct on parts vendors - you tell them you have a 305 V6 and they think you don't know **** - their response is "305's are SBC".

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

1970's BBC V6????????????? don't know of any of those?

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

He meant to say V8

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Yeah… I’ve been thinking the same thing. Bolts up nicely, but maybe it’s just slightly not right? There’s a Remy listed online as well, so I may just throw good money after bad and try that one…. I’ve said this before but “it’s the only thing that makes sense”….

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

Almost 4 years ago I was in on this post https://6066gmcclub.com/showthread.php?t=50522

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

This is what I would do:
1. Removed the starter.
2. Clean the Bendix and shaft with Mineral Spirits. Then blow dry with compress air.
3. Lubricate the Bendix and shaft with silicon spray. Spray everything (Bendix and shaft) and let is soak into the Bendix. You can move the Bendix by hand to help the internal get lubricated. Let the excess run off. Do not wipe off.
4. Reinstall the starter and the problem should be gone.

Note: They make two different kind of silicon sprays. One type is running, this is what you need. The other is very thick and will not run off, do not use.

This was taught to me 60 years ago. Hope this is helpful.

Re: 65 K1000 305E Starter 'clunk'
 

"but you need to replace the nose with the one from the V6 your working on"

"had to replace the original started because it disintegrated... and then unfortunately while it was sitting on my bench it got thrown away (/sigh)."

Those from above, Murphy's Law at work.

There is a DC electric shop nearby that has a huge pile of dead starters and generators.
Maybe a place like that could supply you with the "nose."