6066 (1960-1966) GMC Truck Club Bitcoin now accepted here! 
Pay Dues
Pay Dues or become a Site Supporter
 



Go Back   6066 (1960-1966) GMC Truck Club > 6066 GMC Truck Club Forum > GMC V6 and V12 Engines


GMC V6 and V12 Engines Engine repair and rebuilding

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old December 7th, 2021, 04:15 PM
Prowbar Prowbar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands
Truck: 1965 GMC 1500, 478 V6, SM420
Posts: 383
Rep Power: 181
Prowbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the rough
Default The fuel efficient GMC V6

Here's something I've been tinkering with for a while. I've been reading that old post from James Cleary and he mentions outstanding fuel economy from an engineering standpoint. Well, as we know, these V6's are anything but fuel-efficient.

Which got me wondering, is it possible to improve the mileage on these V6's? I believe so, by reducing the internal friction that these have. The main advantage we already have is 2 cylinders less than a V8, meaning less friction.

Some ideas I had: (which apply to a 305E)
1. Custom (longer) connecting rods and the use of 4.250" big block Chevy pistons with thin, low tension, piston rings. Modern materials make this possible. This would reduce the massive friction of the thick piston rings and the large piston skirts.
The longer connecting rods are needed because of the higher wrist pin location.

Does anything know what length the stock rods are, and what the deck height is?

2. Another advantage is the compression gain, with a flattop or even a slight dome design. Up to 9.5-10:1 static. Maybe even higher, given the rod ratio.

The disadvantage would be to have everything rebalanced.

Of course, the mains and rod diameters are larger on a V6 than a comparable engine, adding to the friction, which is a given. But I have a hunch this (different piston) will improve the efficiency of the engine significantly.

Reducing additional friction could be done by the switch to a roller camshaft.

Another idea is to change the intake manifold, but I'm not sure how good or bad these are. Optimized and equal fuel distribution to all cylinders is the idea.

I'm no engine builder, just a student on the subject, but I'd love to hear your ideas. It is not my idea to write off the base design, just some thoughts to improve on it.

Last edited by Prowbar; December 7th, 2021 at 05:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old December 7th, 2021, 04:45 PM
FetchMeAPepsi's Avatar
FetchMeAPepsi FetchMeAPepsi is offline
-= Dues Paid =-
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Edmond, Ks
Truck: 1962 4x4 GMC CECILIA
Posts: 1,724
Rep Power: 545
FetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

I can't help, but if someone were to design and build a piston that helped with mileage and efficiency, and was a drop-in replacement for ours, I'd buy 12 of them for the two engines I have.
__________________
Step by steps:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people are like slinkys. Not worth much but funny as heck when pushed down stairs.
__________________
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old December 7th, 2021, 05:22 PM
Prowbar Prowbar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands
Truck: 1965 GMC 1500, 478 V6, SM420
Posts: 383
Rep Power: 181
Prowbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Quote:
Originally Posted by FetchMeAPepsi View Post
I can't help, but if someone were to design and build a piston that helped with mileage and efficiency, and was a drop-in replacement for ours, I'd buy 12 of them for the two engines I have.
That is a great idea; omit the whole BB chevy piston and longer rod and design a piston with the same weight and wrist pin height, which uses the thinner piston rings, ups the compression by removing the dish, and reduces friction by reducing the large piston skirts...

Also, different diameters could be designed and manufactured for the 351, 401, and 478 engines. This would also do away with the 3 compression ring design which definitely adds to the internal friction.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old December 8th, 2021, 02:03 PM
James James is offline
-= Extreme Supporter =-
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Greer, SC
Truck: 1964 GMC 1500 2wd
Age: 69
Posts: 432
Rep Power: 199
James will become famous soon enoughJames will become famous soon enoughJames will become famous soon enough
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowbar View Post
Here's something I've been tinkering with for a while. I've been reading that old post from James Cleary and he mentions outstanding fuel economy from an engineering standpoint. Well, as we know, these V6's are anything but fuel-efficient.

Which got me wondering, is it possible to improve the mileage on these V6's? I believe so, by reducing the internal friction that these have. The main advantage we already have is 2 cylinders less than a V8, meaning less friction.

Some ideas I had: (which apply to a 305E)
1. Custom (longer) connecting rods and the use of 4.250" big block Chevy pistons with thin, low tension, piston rings. Modern materials make this possible. This would reduce the massive friction of the thick piston rings and the large piston skirts.
The longer connecting rods are needed because of the higher wrist pin location.

Does anything know what length the stock rods are, and what the deck height is?

2. Another advantage is the compression gain, with a flattop or even a slight dome design. Up to 9.5-10:1 static. Maybe even higher, given the rod ratio.

The disadvantage would be to have everything rebalanced.

Of course, the mains and rod diameters are larger on a V6 than a comparable engine, adding to the friction, which is a given. But I have a hunch this (different piston) will improve the efficiency of the engine significantly.

Reducing additional friction could be done by the switch to a roller camshaft.

Another idea is to change the intake manifold, but I'm not sure how good or bad these are. Optimized and equal fuel distribution to all cylinders is the idea.

I'm no engine builder, just a student on the subject, but I'd love to hear your ideas. It is not my idea to write off the base design, just some thoughts to improve on it.
Stock rod length: 7.17825" C-C;
Piston Deck Height 0.000"
Not for sure on the Piston Dished Volume but I believe it is around 10CC.

Plans for my 305:
To increase the compression ratio I am planning on offset grind the crankshaft to increase the stroke, going from stock journal size to 0.030" undersize. Then mill the head of the piston (will be 0.030" oversize) to get it back to a zero deck height, this will remove most of the dished from the head of the piston.

Also in the works I have been flow testing the heads to improve the flow. Been getting mixed results from this. Still in progress. I will be targeting high swirl and all the flow I can get. Stock head has no swirl and badly shrouded valves.

I had already modified the intake manifold to be equal to the Magnum engine and had installed the Holley 2 barrels carb. I need to schedule time on the chassis dyno, this will show the change from the totally stock dyno reading.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old December 8th, 2021, 02:24 PM
Prowbar Prowbar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Friesland, the Netherlands
Truck: 1965 GMC 1500, 478 V6, SM420
Posts: 383
Rep Power: 181
Prowbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the roughProwbar is a jewel in the rough
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Quote:
Originally Posted by James View Post
Stock rod length: 7.17825" C-C;
Piston Deck Height 0.000"
Not for sure on the Piston Dished Volume but I believe it is around 10CC.

Plans for my 305:
To increase the compression ratio I am planning on offset grind the crankshaft to increase the stroke, going from stock journal size to 0.030" undersize. Then mill the head of the piston (will be 0.030" oversize) to get it back to a zero deck height, this will remove most of the dished from the head of the piston.

Also in the works I have been flow testing the heads to improve the flow. Been getting mixed results from this. Still in progress. I will be targeting high swirl and all the flow I can get. Stock head has no swirl and badly shrouded valves.

I had already modified the intake manifold to be equal to the Magnum engine and had installed the Holley 2 barrels carb. I need to schedule time on the chassis dyno, this will show the change from the totally stock dyno reading.
Thanks James. What would the compression ratio be after you've performed the modifications? How much displacement do you gain?

Looking at a picture, indeed, those valves are shrouded pretty bad. Should be better on the larger bore engines, if they have larger chambers?

Custom pistons are expensive, but do you see any gains in my idea? Maybe it is possible to modify a standard piston by machining to up the compression and reduce friction.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old December 8th, 2021, 05:24 PM
James James is offline
-= Extreme Supporter =-
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Greer, SC
Truck: 1964 GMC 1500 2wd
Age: 69
Posts: 432
Rep Power: 199
James will become famous soon enoughJames will become famous soon enoughJames will become famous soon enough
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowbar View Post
Thanks James. What would the compression ratio be after you've performed the modifications? How much displacement do you gain?

Looking at a picture, indeed, those valves are shrouded pretty bad. Should be better on the larger bore engines, if they have larger chambers?

Custom pistons are expensive, but do you see any gains in my idea? Maybe it is possible to modify a standard piston by machining to up the compression and reduce friction.
After all of the modifications, compression ratio would be around 8.75 (stock is 7.5:1). Displacement should be around 310 ci.

Gains and expenses in your idea, with custom made parts anything possible.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old December 8th, 2021, 09:07 PM
duallyjams's Avatar
duallyjams duallyjams is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Deale
Truck: 64 GMC
Posts: 31
Rep Power: 78
duallyjams is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Some where there is a thread that I read where someone turn the rod journals and used connecting rods and I believe the piston too out of a Hemi. The engine was able to turn 5,000 rpm.

I have personal seen at a swap meet where there was a V12 that used a crank trigger and individual coils for each spark plug for the ignition.
__________________
63 GMC V6 carryall
64 GMC V6 LWB
66 GMC SWB BBW buddy buckets

Last edited by duallyjams; December 8th, 2021 at 09:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old December 9th, 2021, 06:20 AM
AZKen's Avatar
AZKen AZKen is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: AZ
Truck: 6066GMC
Posts: 1,605
Rep Power: 513
AZKen is just really niceAZKen is just really niceAZKen is just really niceAZKen is just really niceAZKen is just really niceAZKen is just really nice
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Maybe just spend that risky $8000 development cash on gas for a stock 305E. The difference between 12 MPG and 15 MPG is about 5 cents per mile.

A 700r4 and a 3.08 differential is another option.

What would be the reason for reconstructing a 305E instead or installing GM: 5.3 V8 @ 21 MPG highway...or other modern motor. Lots of good used motors out there if you want a restomod style GMC.

Maybe this is just a "what if" post. Not sure. This kind of talk on 6066Club is messing with Mother Nature and Father Time.

(I am a closet V8 guy)

Last edited by AZKen; December 9th, 2021 at 06:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old December 9th, 2021, 04:06 PM
POWERSTROKE POWERSTROKE is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Madison, WI
Truck: I don't own one - YET!
Posts: 118
Rep Power: 93
POWERSTROKE is on a distinguished road
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Another possibility is to get a big time sponsorship from a TV show about fixing up rare old pickup trucks with a large parts budget, for your custom pistons with plasma ceramic coated piston tops, anti-friction coatings on the piston skirts, low tension rings, custom grind cam, roller cam followers, roller rocker arms, and today there's no reason NOT to run EFI, except for the cost of the aftermarket system.

Another thing that hurts these 60 year old trucks is they are so heavy. Everything is heavier than the same part on a new truck.

Hope you guys have success in achieving your goal!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old December 9th, 2021, 04:56 PM
FetchMeAPepsi's Avatar
FetchMeAPepsi FetchMeAPepsi is offline
-= Dues Paid =-
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Edmond, Ks
Truck: 1962 4x4 GMC CECILIA
Posts: 1,724
Rep Power: 545
FetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of lightFetchMeAPepsi is a glorious beacon of light
Default Re: The fuel efficient GMC V6

Quote:
Originally Posted by POWERSTROKE View Post
Another possibility is to get a big time sponsorship from a TV show about fixing up rare old pickup trucks with a large parts budget, for your custom pistons with plasma ceramic coated piston tops, anti-friction coatings on the piston skirts, low tension rings, custom grind cam, roller cam followers, roller rocker arms, and today there's no reason NOT to run EFI, except for the cost of the aftermarket system.

Another thing that hurts these 60 year old trucks is they are so heavy. Everything is heavier than the same part on a new truck.

Hope you guys have success in achieving your goal!
Haha! now that's the ticket! Call up ol' Garage Squad or someone and hover over them so they don't just throw crap in there and call it done like a lot of these shows do.

I can't believe out of all our members, that no one is independently wealthy enough to finance something like this. Where's Jay Leno when you need him?
__________________
Step by steps:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Some people are like slinkys. Not worth much but funny as heck when pushed down stairs.
__________________
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MSD Fuel Injection for our V6's? TJ's GMC GMC V6 and V12 Engines 19 June 20th, 2023 12:43 AM
best fuel to use in my 305 v6 GMC Archiver Previous Forum Posts 3 September 12th, 2011 03:44 AM
Unleaded Fuel - V6 305E Archiver Previous Forum Posts 0 March 3rd, 2006 12:21 AM
Re: 351 V6 Fuel Injection Archiver Previous Forum Posts 0 November 9th, 2005 12:10 AM
V6 fuel injection Archiver Previous Forum Posts 0 September 1st, 2004 04:44 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd 681711554703|1710435499|0